- Damilola Banjo
- • October 10, 2023
Norberto Moretti, Brazil’s deputy permanent representative to the United Nations, says the BRICS political and economic bloc — Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa — is pushing to enhance international financial institutions while not necessarily creating an alternative world order that bypasses the United States dollar domination.
Speaking with PassBlue on Oct. 5, Moretti, who joined Brazil’s mission to the UN in June, said that the BRICS group thinks that the economic order should be reformed to better accommodate their own participation in the global financial system. Brazil takes the rotating Security Council presidency this month.
“As you know, these organizations — international financial institutions — badly need reform precisely because they don’t respond to the needs of developing countries any longer, at least not at the magnitude needed,” Moretti said during an interview at Brazil’s mission to the UN. (His ambassador, Sérgio França Danese, was traveling with other Security Council members to Addis Ababa to attend an African Union conference.)
Many analysts perceived the annual summit of the BRICS, held this year in Johannesburg, as a play by China and Russia to create a multilateral order that counterbalances the US and others in the West. To prove that contention, analysts say, America’s arch-enemy, Iran, was invited to join the bloc with Argentina, Egypt, Ethiopia, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates.
“Despite the clear geopolitical objectives that China has for the group, many other developing and emerging economies don’t see BRICS as an exclusively geopolitical body,” Helena Legarda of the Mercator Institute for China Studies told CNN in August. “They are also motivated by economic opportunities and the chance of securing privileged access to the Chinese and other markets.”
Gustavo Macedo, a Brazilian visiting scholar of international relations at Columbia University, told PassBlue that although BRICS do not have the muscle to shake up the economic world order, they are positioned to do so in the future. He said the bloc may appear unanimous, but its recent expansion highlights the political differences of its member countries.
“BRICS is not threatening Western institutions right now,” Macedo said in an interview on Oct. 9. “But the way that I see BRICS is that it is trying to be an alternative multilateral forum.”
Popular rhetoric by BRICS members suggests that part of the goal of enhancing financial institutions would be to eliminate the dollar as the dominant currency for global trade.
At the BRICS summit, President Vladimir Putin of Russia, attending virtually, claimed that his de-dolarization agenda was “gaining momentum.” Brazil’s President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva questioned the need to use the dollar for global trade during a trip to China in April.
“Why should every country have to be tied to the dollar for trade?” he asked. “Who decided the dollar would be the (world’s) currency?” The leftist president also asked why the BRICS could not create their own central bank or trade using one another’s country’s national currency.
Reaching consensus on such an overarching decision may be difficult. To join the European Union, for example, a major part of the process requires aligning with the bloc’s foreign policy.
To expert observers, the emerging economies that form the BRICS appear to have widely disparate foreign policy ideologies. That diversity was clear when the announcement of new members was made in August, the first time the group has been enlarged since South Africa joined in 2010.
“Without a shared ideology and clear overarching goal, it is likely that the addition of six new members may instead make BRICS a more divided group,” Legarda said.
The original bloc of four was formed before the global economic crisis of 2008. By avoiding sensitive disputes such as China’s border issues with India and focusing on common interests, Manjari Miller of the Council on Foreign Relations said that after the 2022 summit in India the bloc could make unified presentations to other multilateral bodies.
Each month, PassBlue profiles UN ambassadors as their countries assume the Security Council presidency. PassBlue sat down with Moretti on Oct. 5, where we discussed such issues as global warming, Russia’s war in Ukraine, Human Rights Council elections as well as Brazil’s signature events for the Security Council in October. The annual women, peace and security debate is to be held on Oct. 25. Brazil concedes in its concept note that although a “record number” of women are participating as experts in public Council meetings, women continue to be “excluded” and “sidestepped” from decision-making peace processes.
The interview with Moretti has been edited and condensed for clarity and space.
PassBlue: President Lula met with President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine during the UN General Assembly in September. What did they talk about? The meeting was very productive, professional, cordial. Both parties wanted to meet. Basically, the discussion was about each country’s views on the situation in Ukraine and possibilities of cooperating to resolve the situation peacefully.
PassBlue: Are there plans for Brazil to propose peace talks? There are several plans. As you know, Ukraine itself has put forward a plan. China has put forward its own plan. Brazil has said many times that it’s prepared to join an effort led by countries in several parts of the world. As we see in those cases, the parties need a group or entities or persons to help them discuss and agree on a possible peaceful solution.
PassBlue: I see that the Ukraine war is not on the agenda of the Security Council in October. But is there any feasible effort to bring Russia back to the Black Sea Grain agreement? Ukraine is not on the work program not because the Council will not discuss this issue, but as we have been saying all along, as the president of the Council, we will certainly be open to hold meetings. One general comment: the program in October is typically a very heavy month on regular Council business . . . . So we took the view to not overload the program with additional meetings precisely because it’s really a heavy month. And this first week has been taken by the Council’s trip to Addis Ababa to meet with the [African Union] Peace and Security Council. [The Council met on Oct. 9 on Ukraine]
PassBlue: You plan to host a signature event on Oct. 20 about using dialogue to solve disputes at regional and subregional levels, which is an important conversation to have, given the number of rapidly unfolding crises around the world. What do you think regional bodies and, by extension, the Security Council should do to deliver on their responsibility to maintain peace and security? Building peace is always a challenge, and we need everyone that can help in the current situation. The debate that we are proposing aims to highlight the role of regional bodies not necessarily in cooperation with the UN or in coordination with the UN because they have their own value as mechanisms or tools for peaceful resolution [and] prevention. So they can apply their best efforts in any situation. Normally, these organizations are closer to the parties; they understand their realities more easily sometimes; there are cultural synergies, economic relations, certainly political relations that bring the conflict closer to these mechanisms or arrangements and the other way around. What the UN can do is understand when there is more value added in these organizations, mechanisms or arrangements to deal with a situation. And then the UN should step aside; not to disappear from the scene but to cooperate to support these organizations’ mechanisms, arrangements. . . . But in some cases, this is not possible.
PassBlue: We have been observing Council briefings for at least a decade and the issue of migration hardly comes up. I have personally not heard it. When will the Security Council take up migration, especially climate-induced migration, as a serious concern? Migration should be looked at with different perspectives; there is migration, for example, that happens in our region, the Americas, that is normally motivated by the lack of economic opportunities. But if you think about, for example, Africa and the current migration flows to Europe, they are driven by several factors; again, poverty is one of them. In some cases, migration can aggravate a conflict. Migration can also in some cases be motivated by climate phenomena. So when migration or other phenomena relate to peace and security, the Council is fully entitled to deal with them. Migration flows can aggravate conflicts or contribute to the eruption of a conflict, so member states normally mention it, deal with it. Not as much as refugees or internally displaced people.
PassBlue: Brazil is part of the BRICS, which wants to re-envision multilateralism. Some of the members have very questionable human rights approaches. What is your view on the notion that certain countries have expressed that human rights are often politicized? Politicization of human rights . . . weakens the whole construct of human rights law. Whether Country A or B politicize it, it’s a different discussion. But Brazil has long taken the position that the way the Human Rights Council was built . . . was precisely to avoid what we call selectivity. Brazil has served for five times in the Human Rights Council, we are now a candidate for a sixth term. And we have always been very clear and firm saying that if we are to defend, promote, preserve the very important achievement we made in the past, which translates into the creation of the Human Rights Council, we should all be very rigorous in following the three main principles of the system:indivisibility of human rights, universality of human rights and nonselectivity.
PassBlue: If Brazil is elected again to the Human Rights Council, on Oct. 10, will you be taking on such political matters as the prison sentencing of a Uyghur academic, Rahile Dawut? [UPDATE, Oct. 10: Brazil was elected by 144 votes] We will take, as we have in the past, all issues of rights from the perspective of the three principles that I mentioned. And being specific does not mean being selective. But sometimes, if you are specific on one side of a country or situation and not on the other, then you may run the risk of being selective. As I said, selectivity kills the system.
PassBlue: There have been reports in Brazil that Lula is not doing enough to reverse the anti-Indigenous people’s policies instituted by former President Jair Bolsonaro. What is your response to these criticisms? This criticism is poorly informed. True, you can’t change situations overnight. We’re talking about very complex issues. And there have been negative developments in the past, but there are clear examples of effective action by the current administration directly related to Indigenous interests. Deforestation was reduced by 50 percent in nine months in the Amazon region. Normally, those directly affected by deforestation are the Indigenous population. So fighting deforestation goes a long way in defending the rights and interests of Indigenous populations.
PassBlue: Finally, ambassador, our audience likes to know what you do for fun in New York City? Normally, I’ve been leaving the office around 9:30 [at night]. My wife doesn’t like it. Just yesterday, she told me it’s the last time I’ll wait for you to have dinner. I can understand her. This is a busy time of year for us. We are on the Security Council and president [this month]. We have all the committees of the General Assembly in full throttle, so it’s to be understood. But how do I have fun in New York? I like the city very much. It’s the second time I’ve lived here. It’s full of energy. It reminds me of Rio, to some extent. Concretely speaking, what I’ve been doing to have fun is going to the movies. And walking by the river. I can’t complain.
Brazil’s Deputy Permanent Representative to the UN: Norberto Moretti, 58
Since: June 19, 2023
Languages: Portuguese, English, Spanish, French
Education: Degree in history from the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro (UFRJ); and in diplomacy from the Brazilian Diplomatic Academy (Instituto Rio Branco).
His story, briefly: He joined the Foreign Service in 1990. Among his numerous roles, he was adviser to the under-secretary-general for political planning (1994), political coordinator when Brazil was in the UN Security Council (2010-2011), head of the International Peace and Security Division (2011), adviser to the Minister of Foreign Affairs (2013), director of the Department of Financial Affairs and Services (2015) and director of the Department of Northern and Western South America (2018). In 2019-2020, he was secretary in the Secretariat of Foreign Trade and Economic Affairs at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, where he was also Brazil’s sherpa at the G20, BRICS and IBSA. He was the permanent representative of Brazil to the International Civil Aviation Organization, or ICAO, in Montreal, from 2021 to 2023.
Country Profile
President of Brazil: Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva
Minister of Foreign Affairs: Mauro Luiz Iecker Vieira
Type of Government: Federal presidential constitutional republic
Year Brazil Joined the UN: 1945
Years in the Security Council: 2022-2023; and 10 previous terms, second to Japan as an elected member
Population (2022): 215,575,481
Per capita CO2 emission figures (in metric tons): 2.15 per person (2022); US, by comparison, 14.86 (2021)
We welcome your comments on this article. What are your thoughts on Brazil’s ambitions in BRICS?
Damilola Banjo
Damilola Banjo is a staff reporter for PassBlue. She has a master’s of science degree from the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism and a B.A. in communications and language arts from the University of Ibadan, Nigeria. She has worked as a producer for NPR’s WAFE station in Charlotte, N.C.; for the BBC as an investigative journalist; and as a staff investigative reporter for Sahara Reporters Media.